Posts by Richard Oliver

207

Honest Questions About Child Abuse

by Richard Oliver in

i have two honest questions for everyone here.

i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

Richard Oliver

Landy- I am trying to find the correct case but there was a case where a man sued Watchtower because he was abused by a man who was a witness in his hall when the plaintiff was a child. The material facts of the case included that the plaintiff's step-father was an elder in the congregation and had knowledge of the perpetrator's previous allegations. But in the capacity of the child's step-father, he allowed the child to associate with the perpetrator. In your opinion who is responsible for the abuse that was put upon this child?

I am not trying to start an argument with anyone. I have legitimate questions.

207

Honest Questions About Child Abuse

by Richard Oliver in

i have two honest questions for everyone here.

i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

Richard Oliver

Iwasblind- My point was not for cases where a previous allegations was made. My point was, how can you expect Watchtower to be responsible for the actions of a member when they have never heard of an allegation before. Can any association be responsible for the actions of another person if they have never been warned about it?

Also too many people here don't realize that the ARC doesn't have any actual power to make changes. They can submit their findings to the law enforcement, and legislatures around the country but they don't have the power to make any changes themselves.

207

Honest Questions About Child Abuse

by Richard Oliver in

i have two honest questions for everyone here.

i understand that most here want retribution from the courts against watchtower for child abuse allegations.

but let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an ms. let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person.

Richard Oliver

I have two honest questions for everyone here.

I understand that most here want retribution from the courts against Watchtower for child abuse allegations.

But let us take away the instances where someone was accused of child abuse and then later put back into a position of authority, such as an elder or an MS. Let us just take the cases where a regular publisher or even an appointed person, with no previous accusation of child abuse has come up against that person. Why do you feel that Watchtower is responsible for that person's actions against the child?

Many here are looking for and trying to only sue Watchtower over child abuse. But doesn't that require a child to be abused and to be hurt along with years of litigation and then mental health support. Why is it that more and more people here aren't encouraging each other to try and work with your state or national legislatures to get laws changed for everyone to to be mandatory reports of child abuse? This would be something that actually helps future victims.

14

Vow of Obedience and Poverty? WTF??

by NikL in

jw
friends

listener on here started a cool thread about the april 2017 wt which can be found here.... https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/4881380162928640/watchtower-april-2017-overview.

it got me to look at it closer and in the opening study they use terminology i've never heard used before namely, "vow of obedience and poverty".... 19 currently, there are some 67,000 members of the worldwide order of special full-time servants of jehovah’s witnesses.

some perform bethel service, others engage in construction or in circuit work, serve as field instructors or special pioneers or missionaries or as assembly hall or bible school facility servants.

Richard Oliver

Those in special full-time service (receives money from the branch) has to sign a vow of obedience and poverty for at least 30 or 40 years. They sign it in order to ensure that the person who is a member of the worldwide order of special full-time service knows that their status as a member can be removed at anytime or can be reassigned to a different location or job as needs are needed to be filled.

14

Question on the Special Order... document and its implications

by careful in

several times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.

the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.

basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.

Richard Oliver

I can only speak intelligently about the US and those that take the vow in the US. The part of obedience would apply throughout the world. The vow of poverty and tax implications would be adjusted based on laws and regulations in each sovereign country. But since the US has the most bethelites, and traveling overseers and their wives, that is the biggest group that is part of the order.

14

Question on the Special Order... document and its implications

by careful in

several times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.

the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.

basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.

Richard Oliver

Consulting services is a division within Legal that prepares the tax returns for members of the order. It is a unique thing to have a vow of poverty so not everyone knows how to handle their tax returns. Their only job is either to prepare tax returns or to approve tax returns that a member has had an accountant prepare for them. It is ultimately up to each member to file an accurate and proper tax return but they will make sure that it is compliant with IRS and all state laws and regulations.

Bethel office only really gets involved if someone doesn't either file their paperwork with consulting services in a timely fashion or does not notify with consulting services that they filed their tax return. And they only get involved because they want to ensure that everyone in order is compliant with federal and state laws and regulations.

6

FYI- Washington Post article for XJW legal nerds: Excommunication, Buddhists, temple control: An interesting new Supreme Court petition

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/12/15/excommunication-buddhists-and-temple-control-an-interesting-new-supreme-court-petition/?utm_term=.6f371ba712ef.

excommunication, buddhists, and temple control: an interesting new supreme court petition.

by eugene volokh the volokh conspiracyopinion.

Richard Oliver

Also remember that the supreme court receives thousands of writs a year and only set for full review on a fraction of a percent. This case may never actually get too be heard by the full court.

14

Question on the Special Order... document and its implications

by careful in

several times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.

the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.

basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.

Richard Oliver

Vacation time is calculated at 12 days base plus 1 day for every 2 years of full-time service. They also grant additional vacation days for sisters at 40 and brothers at 50 and it goes up I believe at about every 10 years. Also their is concensious, though not official, if you are only required to work 5 days the other time is your own so you can do as you please. The vow is basically there so that you don't work during the days that you are devoting to your vow of poverty.

14

Question on the Special Order... document and its implications

by careful in

several times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.

the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.

basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.

Richard Oliver

I am speaking because I used to work for a company that would contract with Bethelites a lot when they would take vacation time off to do some work for vacation money.

14

Question on the Special Order... document and its implications

by careful in

several times on this forum posts have been made about the "order of special full-time servants" in the wts and the document that must be signed by those entering it, bethelites, cos, and so on.

the reason given for the whole thing has usually been for tax purposes, that by signing this document full-timers become exempt from taxation by belonging to this special group.

basically then, end of story.. however, there is a clause in said document stating that any money made by the full-time worker beyond the allowance given by the society has to be turned over to the society.

Richard Oliver

The vow of poverty only limits income derived from work. Income derived from investments, social programs or retirement accounts do not violate the prohibition on work. A person is released from their vow of poverty when they take vacation time from the order in order to gain additional income. A vacation can be as short as an hour. Consulting services asks members if they have received any additional funds from outside sources only so that they prepare accurate and legal tax returns for that member of the order. Even if a member of the order uses an outside accountant to prepare the tax return consulting services still requires them to have it approved by them as the laws on it is unique and not all accountants are familiar with preparation for someone with a vow of poverty. Neither the branch nor anyone else requires that donations be made from a member of the order that receives outside money.

The paperwork a member of the order also signs is that the GB and it's personnel committee or service committee can revoke status as a member of the order at any time and that they are not liable for any support once the member is no longer part of the order. All bethelites are aware that their status can be revoked at any time and at the discretion of the governing body.